Episode 5: Lessons in Dryland Cover Cropping and Livestock with Neil Appel
Neil Appel on Appel Prairie Farms
About the episode:
Join Ryan and Neil Appel as they dig into the lessons learned over the years by integrating livestock into Neil’s farming operation. Neil has teamed up with a friend to integrate cattle into his FLOURISH cover crop trials, and has been experimenting with what works best over the last couple of years. Ryan and Neil also chat about cover crop mixes, cover crop termination processes, aluminum toxicity in soil, and ideas on future soil health experiments.
Neil is a participant in the FLOURISH on-farm trials.
About the podcast:
Welcome to the FLOURISH Podcast, where we at the Palouse Conservation District interview farmers, ranchers, and researchers on topics related to conservation agriculture. FLOURISH, also known as Farmers Leading Our United Revolution in Soil Health, is a farmer-led conservation innovation project to support the widespread adoption of soil health practices by integrating cover crops and livestock into farming operations in the Inland Pacific Northwest. The ambitious purpose of FLOURISH is to not only regenerate our soils, but also our rural communities by creating opportunities for younger generations to return to productive, sustainable farms. On this podcast, we bring you updates from on-farm trials, research, findings, and advice from farmers.
The views and opinions expressed on the FLOURISH Podcast are those of the guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Palouse Conservation District or the USDA Conservation Innovation Grants program. Any content provided by our Guests are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion, ethnic group, club, organization, company, individual, or anyone or anything.
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Introduction
Hello, and welcome to the FLOURISH Podcast, where we at the Palouse Conservation District interview farmers, ranchers, and researchers on topics and conservation agriculture. FLOURISH, also known as Farmers Leading our United Revolution in Soil Health, is a farmer-led conservation innovation project to support the widespread adoption of soil health practices by integrating cover crops and livestock into farming operations. The ambitious purpose of FLOURISH is to not only regenerate our soils, but also our rural communities by creating opportunities for younger generations to return to productive sustainable farms. On this podcast, we bring you updates from on-farm trials, research findings, and advice from farmers.
Ryan Boylan (01:04):
Hello, welcome back to the FLOURISH Podcast. This is our first one of 2025, and today we're on Appel Prairie Farms with Neil Appel. Neil, thanks for joining us.
Neil Appel (01:12):
You're welcome, Ryan.
Ryan Boylan (01:14):
I was wondering if you could just talk a little bit about your farming operation, where we are, how much rain you get.
Neil Appel (01:20):
Okay. Uh, so basically, I've been farming since 2005. I raise wheat and barley and alfalfa. I have feeder cattle and some sheep. I farm near Dusty, Washington. We're in the 15-to-16-inch annual rainfall.
Ryan Boylan (01:42):
What about, what does your crop rotation look like?
Neil Appel (01:45):
So, historically, we've been running winter wheat and then we, then the next year it'll be spring wheat or spring barley, and then we do a chem fallow year following that. In the past, my dad, he used to rod weed all summer. And then, uh, when I took over, I started experimenting with chem fallow and I found it took a lot less time. So then basically 15 years ago, I converted the whole place over to all direct seed. And I run a cross slot drill. Um, it's been a, a large learning curve, um, but now everything seems to be going well. I can seed it into 120 winter wheat stubble in the spring. So I have a lot of residue on top, which is ideal for the direction I'm headed.
Ryan Boylan (02:49):
No, that's great. Thanks for the background. How many did you, I don't know if you said this or not, but how many generations has your family been farming here?
Neil Appel (02:56):
Uh, so I'm the second generation on this farm. Down the road is where my Grandpa, he started, I can't even remember when he started, but, so he would be the third generation, I guess.
Ryan Boylan (03:10):
Okay, that's good. Um, so the podcast is all about the FLOURISH program, which again, just for the people that are listening, that's Farmers Leading our United Revolution in Soil Health, and Neil is one of those farmers. Um, can you tell us a little bit about why you wanted to participate in the program or how you got involved?
Neil Appel (03:24):
Okay. So, so a couple years ago, I guess five years ago, there was an Alternative Cropping Symposium over in Pullman. So a group of us attended and basically, an individual, Mike Nester, got up and he spoke about his cover crop experience. And all of us were sold. So we all jumped in and started the journey on a cover crop with a cereal grain or canola in the mix. And then I graze that during the summer. Um, the Nester project didn't work out as well as we hoped for, but that got us thinking. And then Tami Stubbs approached us and said, “Hey, if you guys are gonna do all this experimenting, why don't you get paid for it?” And so, so that's why we joined FLOURISH 'cause it was exactly, we were gonna do it anyway.
Neil Appel (04:30):
Um, each of us had read the book by Gabe Brown, “Dirt to Soil.” And we were inspired. We knew this was the next step beyond no-till. We could see that, that we're using a extremely high amount of Roundup to combat weeds. And fertilizer, well, at that time, fertilizer prices were going through the roof. Roundup was $53 a gallon, and we needed to find a different solution. And so, we liked the idea of putting, um, animals back on the ground and rejuvenating the soil health. Ultimately with a better, healthier soil, we should have a healthier crop, which it means healthier food. All those were, are, non-essential goals in terms of the bottom line at the farm. But that was, uh, I, in an idealistic world, that is what would be accomplished. Um, so that was...
Ryan Boylan (05:38):
Yeah, that's, that's great. And the common answer is “Tami Stubbs like brought us into this,” so it is good. And yeah, Tami Stubbs is a, a coworker that used to work with us at the Palouse Conservation District. So did you experiment with cover crops prior to Mike Nestor at all, or was that the first time?
Neil Appel (05:56):
That was the first time that I had experienced cover crops. Um, so the following spring after that project I put in winter peas early spring and then I graze those for like three weeks. Cattle did great, three pounds a day. Um, and then the following year, the winter wheat that came off of that ground, yielded the same as my chem fallow. And so without the, without two sprayings, um, plus gain on the cattle. So it was a, it was a win. So yeah, with Mike's project, it just got us going. But, uh, but no, I had not -
Ryan Boylan (06:41):
Done much before. You, you said there were some issues with that. What were, was it like pest pressure, insect pressure?
Neil Appel (06:48):
So basically the cover crop looked great. The winter wheat looked great 'cause I had put winter wheat in with, a blend, like a cocktail mix of stuff. And I didn't put any fertilizer down on the ground. In the fall I was supposed to fertilize it and I ran outta time and I didn't get it done. So during the course of the winter, I noticed that the winter wheat was starting to turn yellow. So I thought it just needed fertilizer. And that's what the agronomists agreed is that we need to pour some fertilizer onto it just to get it growing again. So we did, and then we put a herbicide down and it never got any better. So then we got, we sent tissue samples away, and we found out that we had highland wheat mosaic in the wheat, which is a tiny, tiny mite that you cannot see, and it spreads with the wind. And so, we terminated it the next day, including some of my winter wheat, to contain it in that area.
Ryan Boylan (07:54):
And, the goal of that, if I remember correctly, was you were seeding cover crop with canola?
Neil Appel (08:03):
So the cover crop was with the winter wheat. And one of the biggest challenges in a low rainfall area is that we won't, the wheat will not come up until it rains. Um, because the cover crop uses the moisture. Um, and so the idea is that we're seeding it in the spring. Or not spring, midsummer, July 1st or 2nd is when we seeded it. And then the winter wheat came up because there's plenty of moisture. Um, historically, like in July, August when the heat arrives, then our moisture will disappear outta the seed zone area. Um, and then it won't come back until September, October. So it's a great idea, it just didn't work out as well as we were hoping for. Today I put the cover crops in when I, the same timing as my spring crop. And then, I've experimented with a summer seeded cover crop. Still the challenge is seeding in the fall. If we don't have rain in September, the wheat doesn't come up until October, November, so that's a 20 bushel hit historically. This past year, that was not the case. We had a rain in June, and then my cover crop ground out-yielded my regular chem fallow ground, which I would not have expected that.
Ryan Boylan (09:36):
So that was the, like winter wheat following the cover crop?
Neil Appel (09:39):
Yes.
Ryan Boylan (09:40):
Oh. So, I've heard a lot of people talk about, I've been in a bunch of these meetings, and, like the cover crop lag in yield. So, following cover crop, oftentimes people see like a yield drop or dip. But you didn't see that.
Neil Appel (09:54):
I didn't, no. Yeah. Not on the, this past year's cover crop.
Ryan Boylan (09:58):
Hmm. And was that, was there a bunch of legumes in there or what, what was the, do you remember what the mix was?
Neil Appel (10:04):
Uh, I had peas in there, um, and then, I don't know why. (laughs)
Ryan Boylan (10:13):
Yeah. No, that's great. Yeah. I guess that's, what we're all trying to figure out.
Neil Appel (10:18):
Right, right. And I had a heavy, so basically as a one-to-two ratio of, well, one-and-a-half cows per acre, basically. 700 weight animals or 800 weight animals. Well, they're 700 when I put 'em on, 800 when I pulled them off. But, so it was grazed very heavily. We didn't manage it as well as, as we did this year. This year, the biggest, I think the biggest challenge with running animals on a cover crop is figuring out how they would best suited to the ground. 'Cause we have hills and so you can't just create paddocks everywhere. You have to lay it out. So you have a, they all can come to water unless you're moving water every day. That's a, it just adds another level of complexity.
Neil Appel (11:16):
So basically like this year we created a wagon wheel, so the animals would always come to the center of the patch to water. They would go down an alley to the water or they would, um, and it seemed to work well. I've tried roller crimping cover crops and it didn't work out very well, but intensively grazing, moving the cows, every day, is a six acre lots, and we had 72 animals on it. So every day they would, we would rattle a bucket, the cows would come running, and, and then they, would open up a gate and they'd go to the next patch, and they were ecstatic. Within a, within a two day time period, the cover crop had recovered enough. So then by six days, uh, it was tall enough for the cows to go back on.
Ryan Boylan (12:13):
Oh, interesting. Um, and you're using hot wire to make the wagon wheel?
Neil Appel (12:18):
Yep. Yep. Yeah, I use polywire. I have, uh, well, part of that. I had a single wire, hardwire all the way around. Um, and now I, I dunno if that was necessary, but the rest of it, we just, it's easy to roll out a single wire, and create the paddocks. And I have an energetic, 20-year-old son. (laughs) Who's happy to run up and down the hills and set up the, the paddocks and make it succeed. And I think that's key to, to having a lot of animals on the ground. Um, last year with, uh, or I guess it's in 2023, 2024, that cover crop we had it only set up in was a 45-acre piece, and we had it set up in three paddocks. And so they're quite a bit bigger. And so they, they did a lot more walking than they needed to. Um, walking beef, uh, you lose fat. You need, that's the, that's the name of the game, is to put the, the beef on the animal. And so if they're walking all the time, they'll wear it off.
Ryan Boylan (13:31):
Do you think the wagon wheel was less labor intensive than like the paddocks that you're moving them to and from?
Neil Appel (13:38):
Initially it's, it's more of a pain. But I think it, uh, it worked well. So, so like this year I had, I had a 50-acre piece, uh, 25 acres. I had 'em on the whole piece. And the reason being is 'cause the radishes were starting to bloom, and I needed it. I needed it munched down. Well, they, in, in a week time period, they didn't accomplish what I was wanting them to do. So I moved them into the, I broke it down the last 25 acres into the six-acre paddocks. Um, no, I had six, they were four-acre paddocks, six plots. I mean, that, that math works out a lot.
Ryan Boylan (14:27):
Yeah. (laughs) That's good.
Neil Appel (14:29):
Anyway, so we had 'em, the, the goal was to terminate the cover crop with the cows. And so every day they're moving. And that worked, um, on the initial 25, we just didn't have the numbers to accomplish what we wanted. So I tried roller crimping - that didn't work. The, so then I mowed the whole thing. And that helped the plants stop going reproductive, but then the triticale, which was in there, it went ahead and shot up another head. So, so I had to use Roundup to terminate the rest of the, that 25 acres. And then, part of the, the challenge that we're having is that, our pH has changed from what it used to be.
Ryan Boylan (15:21):
Is that getting lower? Or, getting higher?
Neil Appel (15:25):
Well, it's getting lower, not necessarily because of the no-till, but because of the synthetic fertilizers we've been putting down. And so one of the weeds that has moved into this country, which we never had before, is dog fennel. And so the dog fennel started coming in that cover crop, and the cows don't really care for dog fennel. So that is why I terminated after I ran the cows for a two week session in those six different paddocks, I terminated the whole place with Roundup.
Ryan Boylan (15:58):
Yeah. That's a cool observation. With the pH changes and the weed changes.
Neil Appel (16:02):
Right. So the idea is that with some of the stuff that I'm adding with my, with my drill, the pH is changing and it's helping with aluminum toxicity, and then hopefully the weed spectrum will change.
Ryan Boylan (16:19):
What, what do you know, like on average what the pH is just for folks to know?
Neil Appel (16:24):
Uh, five and a half to six. Yeah.
Ryan Boylan (16:26):
So like right in that zone of -
Neil Appel (16:27):
So I mean, it's not terrible, but I do have aluminum toxicity problems.
Ryan Boylan (16:33):
So can you just talk about that quickly for people that don't know?
Neil Appel (16:36):
In terms of?
Ryan Boylan (16:37):
Like what, how aluminum toxicity - it affects?
Neil Appel (16:40):
Okay. So, so basically with, a new seedling, it starts shooting out fine roots. And if you pull up your plant and you do not see any hairs on your, on your roots, then you have aluminum toxicity. The first thing that, or that, that is the greatest way or the best way to determine if you have aluminum toxicity. I add some stuff from Apical to my seed when I'm seeding. And, basically I have hairs now. And so, it's just protecting that little zone right around the seed. But the plant has to have the fine hairs to pick up water and to pick up nutrients from the soil.
Ryan Boylan (17:28):
And aluminum toxicities usually effects peas or all legumes? Or is it all plants?
Neil Appel (17:34):
All plants.
Ryan Boylan (17:34):
Oh, wow. Okay. Can we go back to cattle for a second? So we were talking a bunch of weeks ago about, this is just me being naive on grazing cattle and selling cattle. And you were saying if the cattle is too heavy, like after it's been grazed on the cover crop, you could potentially take a hit when you take it to the stockyard. Is that true?
Neil Appel (17:57):
Yeah. So basically, the goal, my goal is to sell the cattle between 800 and 900 pounds. Because if it gets to a thousand pounds, then a feedlot won't want them as much just because they, they can get the 900 to a thousand a lot cheaper than -
Ryan Boylan (18:22):
The 800 to 900.
Neil Appel (18:24):
Or they can put on the weight cheaper than a producer can.
Ryan Boylan (18:28):
Oh, gotcha. So once, right. When you bring it there.
Neil Appel (18:31):
So they want to, they wanna make money. So they're, they want a uniform group of cattle in their feedlot. So ideally they want 900 pound animals going into their feedlot. So then they take 'em from 900 to 15-1600 pounds.
Ryan Boylan (18:48):
Okay. So yeah, like the rate of gain, like per day that you have them on the cover crop, like you really sort of have to watch until you get to that point and then get 'em off.
Neil Appel (18:58):
Right. Right. So everything has to line up. Like there is planning and, and philosophy, there is a philosophy as to what you're trying to accomplish. Like you wanna buy animals that with the end goal in mind. So I, like last year I had the, I had the spring cover crop, then I had a winter cover crop. Well, technically the spring cover crop was the FLOURISH program and the, the summer cover crop was a, was an NRCS program. Anyway, but then the cattle just, it just worked out that the summer, well by, it worked out, by planning that the, that I could move the cattle right over to the next plot. 'Cause a cow that is has no feed, cannot gain, they lose value.
Ryan Boylan (19:50):
Yeah.
Neil Appel (19:51):
And so you always have to have a place for the cows.
Ryan Boylan (19:57):
Yeah. Okay.
Neil Appel (19:58):
You know, and so like this coming year, I'll have to put another cover crop in for the cows to move to in July.
Ryan Boylan (20:08):
Right. 'Cause you, you planted a fall seeded.
Neil Appel (20:11):
Right, by July, I could potentially have weed issues. Like, a cow will go and eat a Russian thistle or a, or a prickly lettuce, but it will not eat dog fennel or cheatgrass. If the, if the paddocks aren't managed well and the cheatgrass gets outta control, then it may have to be terminated. So the cheatgrass doesn't go to seed. The other challenge with the cover crops is some of the plants that we put into the cover crop mix do not do well if they go to seed, that is not good in your winter wheat crop the following year.
Ryan Boylan (20:53):
And that would be triticale you mean?
Neil Appel (20:55)
Yes. (laughs)
Ryan Boylan (20:56)
(laughs) Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
Neil Appel (20:57):
'Cause I had that issue as well. And so, part of the cover crop from, or part of the winter wheat from the previous year, I harvest it separate and then I binned it separate, and then I sold it separately to, some individuals for feed.
Ryan Boylan (21:14):
Yeah. So it's not easy.
Neil Appel (21:17):
No, it's not easy. It's not, you can't just go plant a cover crop and then expect it to rejuvenate your soil and just, it's more of a hands-on sort of system. It's easier to just go out and pull the trigger and spray the whole thing. You know, um, but not at $53 a gallon roundup.
Ryan Boylan (21:38):
Right. And so yeah, having livestock graze sort of helps with that, hopefully?
Neil Appel (21:42):
Right. And I mean, the cattle gained well this year, I think they could have done a little bit better if we had gotten 'em on earlier. But, um, I get cattle from one of my friends and in addition to, to my own, and the cattle weren't ready. And so, but the crop, the cover crop was ready. And so it's -
Ryan Boylan (22:08):
Just the timing.
Neil Appel (22:09):
Timing is key. Communication. But yeah. Fence wasn't ready. (laughs)
Ryan Boylan (22:15):
Yeah. (laughs)
Neil Appel (22:17):
But I don't know.
Ryan Boylan (22:18):
So you own part of the cattle that you put on and then your friend brings some cattle?
Neil Appel (22:24):
Yes.
Ryan Boylan (22:25):
And is that just like an, like a handshake arrangement that you guys have?
Neil Appel (22:29):
Yep. Yep. So we, yeah, he pays based on the gain per day. You know, so we take care of everything, the fence, water, water is probably the biggest challenge, when it's 110 outside for three weeks and the cows are in the middle of nowhere. And no shade. It is very challenging to make sure they have water every day and that the, and it's flowing into the tank.
Ryan Boylan (23:02):
Is that you guys hauling water every day? Or multiple times?
Neil Appel (23:04):
We haul every other day. Every other day we were hauling 3000 gallons.
Ryan Boylan (23:09):
Oh, wow. Yeah. So added level of complexity.
Neil Appel (23:12):
Right, right, right. And so the, so if the cattle are calm and they have water and they have feed, then even if the fence is dead, they will stay in.
Ryan Boylan (23:25):
Just hang out and be happy.
Neil Appel (23:27):
Yeah, they’ll just hang out and be happy. But as soon as one of those elements is wrong, then they are gone. And that is not a very fun feeling when you come over the top of the hill and you see no cows and they're several miles away. (laughs)
Ryan Boylan (23:43):
(laughs) Have you, you mentioned sheep in the beginning. Have you grazed sheep on cover crops?
Neil Appel (23:49):
I have not at this point in time. The nice thing about cattle is I, I've been doing single wire, electric fence. It's easy to put out and deal with. Historically, like my family has had sheep, or my dad started with sheep. And then at first, at one point my dad and I had 200 head of sheep and we were grazing them in different pastures. We're down a long ways now. We have, between my son and I, we have 65. My son's goal is that eventually we will have 300 to 500 head of sheep and grazing cover crops. But we are not at that point. And that's a different, that's a different fencing system.
Ryan Boylan (24:38):
That would be permanent fencing kind of, right? Or no?
Neil Appel (24:41):
You can do, like they'll stay in three wire, electric fence. But if there's, the biggest problem with sheep is coyotes and wolves. And so then you're having to deal with either a herder and dogs. So when cows are harassed, they, they start running, and they'll go through a fence. Sheep will do the same thing. It's just sheep will be in 10 different directions. (laughs)
Ryan Boylan (25:11):
Yeah. (laughs) So, so instead of just running up the road, you're going running up 10 different roads.
Neil Appel (25:19):
Yes.
Ryan Boylan (25:20):
We started talking about this before we started recording, but, your nephew might try and set up a chicken tractor this year?
Neil Appel (25:29):
Yep, yep. So he's, he's gung-ho to convert an old camper into a, a mobile chicken hut. And, and then his goal is to follow the cattle and the cover crop, and then sell the eggs from that project. So we'll see how it works. But they can cover like a half an acre in a week. And so it's not gonna be a lot of acres that he can cover. But basically we'll be focusing on the ridge where it's been windblown for centuries and the soil's poor. And so hopefully it'll help that.
Ryan Boylan (26:11):
And how many chickens was he gonna put in?
Neil Appel (26:13):
Uh, somewhere between 100 and 300 chickens.
Ryan Boylan (26:15):
Cool.
Neil Appel (26:16):
So, we'll see how the first hundred do. And then whether he decides to upgrade and keep going.
Ryan Boylan (26:22):
Yeah, no, that'll be interesting to see in the…
Neil Appel (26:27):
Oh yeah. Yep. So the, the cover crop I did a couple years ago, I purchased some, the chicken manure from a company and I put it through my drill and put it down with the cover crop. And the cover crop did well and the winter wheat did well after that. So I think it, it'd be a, it'd be a good way to get cheap fertilizer. How's that?
Ryan Boylan (26:57):
Yeah. Yeah. Was it, was that easy to feed through the drill?
Neil Appel (26:59):
Yeah, it went fine. I mean, I have a double box in my drill, and so, and I put it right in and I, so I can meter my seeds separate from the, from the chicken manure. And then, anyway, it seemed to work fine.
Ryan Boylan (27:17):
Maybe that's why you didn't see the lag.
Neil Appel (27:19):
Well, and it's very possible. And that's where the, that's where the winter cover crop is seeded now is on that same ground. So one of the things that I noticed when I seeded the cover crop this fall in that particular ground where the chicken manure was at, is that I, well, one evening, well, when I shut down one evening, I stepped outta the tractor on ground that was unseeded and it was cushy. Like, it was like spongy and it wasn't wet. Which is a very weird feeling, for the place that I was seeding. Anyway, so there's things like the ground is active now. You walk across the road and it is rock hard. And so it's just a, so was the chicken manure part of that or was it some of the other products I'm adding that are getting things going? But there's positive things happening, you know, the goal is to have a greater revenue off of that ground, and we'll see, you know, what happens, you know, this coming year.
Ryan Boylan (28:30):
You talked about like the other products. Are you adding things with, you mentioned seed treatments maybe for the aluminum toxicity, but are you adding anything else? Not like specific product names, but yeah.
Neil Appel (28:39):
Okay. Yeah. So, I'm adding a complex carbohydrate in with my fertilizer, and then some amino acids basically. And the idea behind those is that it's going to help the bacteria break down the fertilizer that I'm adding. So basically, I've backed off on my fertility. So I'm at a 75% load, and I'm trying to get the soil to change, and so it starts feeding my crops. I don’t know, I'm not a soil scientist or a plant biologist. (laughs) I dunno if it's accomplishing what I want, but the yields are fine. You know, so, but the key is like one of the questions you gave me before, a June rain makes or breaks you. You know, and that's what we had last year. You know, so some of my test plots meant nothing because we had a June rain. You know, I'm very thankful we had a June rain. But, on the other hand, I would like to know if some of the stuff I'm doing, whether it's worth the extra money, or if that makes sense.
Ryan Boylan (30:00):
Oh, definitely makes sense. Yeah, it seems to me there's so many products out there that one could apply and spend money on. So yeah. You said like you're cutting your fertilizer rate by 75%.
Neil Appel (30:13):
Or I'm, I'm at a 75% load, so I'm cutting it by 25%.
Ryan Boylan (30:16):
25%. Yeah. Sorry. But then maybe like the cost savings there is getting made up for with these other products that you're applying?
Neil Appel (30:24):
Exactly. Exactly. But can I continue to back down to back off, is in the future, you know, once, uh, the soil is helping grow my plants, if that makes sense.
Ryan Boylan (30:38):
Yeah. Yeah. Definitely makes sense.
Neil Appel (30:40):
You know, and I think having legumes in the cover crops to help feed the soil, I think that's key, you know. And maybe I need to look into a different, I know PCD’s now pushing peas, winter peas. You know, and maybe that's something we could look into if the price goes up. And that's, that's another key point is that, um, $5 wheat doesn't buy much.
Ryan Boylan (31:07):
Yeah. Yeah.
Neil Appel (31:08):
And, you know, so we need to be looking at alternative crops.
Ryan Boylan (31:14):
And, man, I think about this a lot. Do you think one of the issues with, there's a lot of issues, but the alternative crops is just like the markets for them? Like, there's no markets locally for something other than wheat and garbs and peas.
Neil Appel (31:29):
Right, right. Yeah. And I mean, right now cattle are high. You know, and so you can make money if you have cattle. You know, the alfalfa is down, so I mean, there's a, there's a bigger margin out there for people in the cattle business. But there isn't a big margin in the wheat industry, maybe selling privately to individuals or companies, you can make more money at it. And I've played around with that a little bit, with varying amounts of success, you know. But, but a bakery can only use so much.
Ryan Boylan (32:14):
Well I, that's what I think about all the time. Not all the time, but I've thought about this quite a bit, is if, even if there were all these smaller, and I think it's a great thing, like direct marketing or grains. But there's, there couldn't be enough direct markets for everybody that's growing wheat on the Palouse.
Neil Appel (32:31):
Right. Right. No, absolutely.
Ryan Boylan (32:34):
But, yeah, there is still room for that stuff to happen and it is a good thing.
Neil Appel (32:39):
Yes. Yeah.
Ryan Boylan (32:40):
Yeah. I wish there was more of it. (laughs)
Neil Appel (32:44):
Yeah. Well, yeah. Hopefully we can figure out something else to grow, that will bring the bottom line up.
Ryan Boylan (32:53):
Mm-hmm. So kind of along the same topic, uh, and this could just be me, and I've asked other people on this podcast before, but do you think there is something happening with this regenerative ag movement, whatever you wanna call it, like a shift in farming mentality towards something else? Maybe it's just like the circle that I'm in. Is it like a bigger…I always wonder if it's similar to what was happening in like the ‘70s when direct seed came in.
Neil Appel (33:21):
I believe that there is, there is a shift within the community. Like when I started farming, they had the, Dennis Roe had the direct seed breakfast. And the main thing that was talked about was what drill should you use, you know, because people were interested in, in no-till. And so I remember listening to Gavin Porter on the cross-slot drill, and, and the guy from Horsch, you know, the guy at, Pine City, uh, I can't remember the name, but anyway, from Rosalia trying to sell a Horsch drill. And, and so during that time period, everybody is looking at, at no-till as the next big thing. Now, people don't talk about drills. Now, it's all about soil health and the direction we need to be going. You know, with the, the Roundup scare, it's, people are thinking, well, when you're putting down, 32 ounces, 64 ounces of Roundup, you know, four times the summer, that's a lot of Roundup.
Neil Appel (34:30):
Well, and speaking of Roundup, it, it started as a…roundup originally was an antibacterial, it was a soap. And they found it killed things. So then they, that's, that was the beginning of Roundup.
Ryan Boylan (34:45)
Wow, I didn't know that.
Neil Appel (34:48)
And so, so that gets in. So, if we're applying 32 to 64 ounces of Roundup, you know, four times a year, it's killing our fungus in the, in the top inch or two inches of our soil. And we need that for a healthier plant. You know, and so, so I think everybody's just, well, and then with Roundup, when it jumped so high, people were questioning whether we should be applying that much. You know, around the Dusty area, up until the last five, six years, the majority of the people rod weeded every summer. I mean, you'd see a plume of, of dust in the horizon because somebody is rod weeding every day. You know, to kill the weeds. But, now people are, for whatever reason, are changing over to that, and that's kind of the norm. And then, you know, and so, I don’t know.
Ryan Boylan (35:52):
Yeah. So something's shifting. Or maybe it's, maybe it's, maybe it's the next step.
Neil Appel (35:57):
Right. And I believe it is the next step. It's getting to that point. I'm not sure, I think we're onto something. It's just figuring out the rotation. At the last breakfast we listened to a guy and he was talking about the, he's transitioning to organic farming. And that's, you know, like when we raise, the only reason we raise spring crop is for rotational purposes. So if we have winter wheat, and then we make it into chem fallow, and then we seed it back to winter wheat the next year, we'll take a, a 20-bushel hit from if we had done winter wheat, then a spring grain, chem fallow. Does that make sense?
Ryan Boylan (36:44)
Yeah. Yeah.
Neil Appel (36:45)
And so that is, that is the benefit of a spring crop. But we can, if we did winter wheat, a cover crop in the fall, and then we follow it with a legume, and then we seed our winter wheat again, that takes out a bunch of Roundup. And then can we, I dunno if that would pencil out. And it all depends on what peas do. Or garbs. You follow what I'm saying?
Ryan Boylan (37:16):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, the price and yeah.
Neil Appel (37:19):
Right.
Ryan Boylan (37:20):
That's cool. I, I feel like, I was thinking about cover crops as just like one piece of the puzzle. Right? You're not gonna like seed them and they're gonna regenerate your soil automatically. It's like, takes this long rotational process like you were talking about.
Neil Appel (37:32):
Right. Right.
Ryan Boylan (37:33):
And then I haven't heard a ton of people talk about how it fits in like the full rotation and everybody, you know, every farm's different. Everybody has different theories too, but that's, it's great to hear that you have like a, a vision for how you think it could work.
Neil Appel (37:45):
Right. At least that's how I envision it happening. So then you have, so basically the legumes that are in the cover crop, they are feeding the cover crop, right? The nitrogen, what is necessary for their nitrogen needs. And then some of those cover crops are going down and they're mining minerals and they're bringing them up and they're breaking down during the pea cycle, I guess. And then, then the peas, whether the peas are taken to harvest. 'Cause the pea could also be just used as a green manure crop, like I did in the very beginning. Like peas, theoretically what I was told by somebody I respect, a pea will produce moisture up to the point that they flower. So if you terminate 'em before they flower, then you haven't lost any moisture. But then they also can produce nitrogen to feed your winter wheat crop. I mean, so the speaker I thought, I think he was on to something worth looking into. Is kind of how I, I view it. But all that said, I'm just experimenting in a small, you know, 50 acres or so to see if that would transition into something worth doing on the whole place, whole farm. You know, so. Yeah.
Ryan Boylan (39:09):
Yeah. I have one more question on this and maybe we can shift gears. So in your ideal world, going back to what you were talking about how you terminated the cover crop, like you ended up, it was grazed and then part of it you had roller crimped and then you mowed and then you sprayed, and like, you don't wanna have to do that.
Neil Appel (39:24):
No. No.
Ryan Boylan (39:25):
Like how, what would be your ideal way of like, a termination?
Neil Appel (39:28):
So just on the 25 acres, that's how I had to terminate that one. Just because I was, was trying to figure out one way that would work and once you go around the field, you might as well do the whole piece. Otherwise you just have a bunch of mowed strips. (laughs)
Ryan Boylan (39:45):
Yeah. (laughs)
Neil Appel (39:45):
Anyway, on the other piece, I terminated it with Roundup. After the cows basically annihilated it. You know, in ideal world we could graze it to the ground and then seed into it. And in essence, that's what I did on the, on the warm season cover crop. I had the cattle on there right, to the, to right before I seeded. And so then I seeded directly into it and then I hit it with Roundup before the wheat came up. It was dry anyway, so wheat wasn't gonna come up until it rained. So ideally, I guess in, I, I guess, I don’t know. (laughs)
Ryan Boylan (40:30):
(laughs) No. Yeah. We're trying to figure it out.
Neil Appel (40:33):
Right, right. You know, I, I don't like tillage, so I don't wanna pull a speed disc to terminate stuff. We have too many places where the, where it would've washed. And I don't have any ditches right now.
Ryan Boylan (40:49):
Yeah. That's great.
Neil Appel (40:50):
So, I don’t know, you have any recommendations? (laughs)
Ryan Boylan (40:53):
(laughs) Oh, no. I mean, I don't, it just seems like with the topography, the roller crimper is difficult. And yeah. I mean, Roundup is another good tool that you can use. I guess if the mix was right, you could graze it and then winter kill it. But that's all like a timing. And yeah.
Neil Appel (41:11):
Right, right. So if you're not trying to get a winter crop into the cover crop, then you could graze up until, up until fall. And then it winter kills. So yes, ideally that's what would, will happen this year, but I have not experienced that yet.
Ryan Boylan (41:29):
Yeah. Yeah. We'll see. Maybe next year.
Neil Appel (41:32):
Yeah. Maybe next year. I'll ask.
Ryan Boylan (41:34):
That sounds good. Alright. So I'm gonna shift gears a little bit. So it, it, it does always seem like you guys, broadly speaking and stereotyping, are maybe like three steps ahead of where the ag research is. And this is like no offense to any of the research universities around, and then we're just trying to keep up with what you're doing. Are there things that you would like to see the land grant universities or the conservation districts or whoever's doing research on this stuff focus on? And if not, that's totally fine too.
Neil Appel (42:08):
I, to be honest, I haven't thought about that.
Ryan Boylan (42:10):
Yeah, no, that's fine. It's okay. And from my perspective, like we'll talk and then I'm like, “Oh, whoa, that's cool, like, we should do something to see what's actually going on.” And then even just after having conversations with you and like the rest of the FLOURISH group, it's like, “Oh, could we measure active fungi and active bacteria or can we look at more at what's actually happening with the soil microbiology?”
Neil Appel (42:34):
Right, right. And I think, so all, with all this that we're doing, one thing that could be done is like, what progress are we making? Are we coming close to reaching our goals? You know, 'cause I've, I've sent soil tests away to, to have ag regen, is that?
Ryan Boylan (42:57):
Yeah, Regen Ag.
Neil Appel (42:57):
Yeah. Regen Ag, to see if I've reached the regenerative criteria or whatever. Um, but every soil is different, so have I changed enough to, to be considered regen or, or what else should I be doing? What cover crops should I be putting in, into the rotation that would be beneficial. I listened to a speaker, and you were at the meeting, last winter, and the guy was putting cereal rye down and then roller crimping it and seeding it to corn. I think one of the last questions you asked in the sheet you gave me was what is the neighbor's perspective of all this that I'm doing and that would not be looked well upon in the Dusty-Lacrosse area. (laughs)
Ryan Boylan (43:57):
Yeah. Can you talk about that a little bit? Like, uh, cereal rye is used as a cover crop in the Midwest, like quite a bit. And like very successfully. And why is it not used here?
Neil Appel (44:07):
Because of, of the rye problem down at hay in Central Ferry.
Ryan Boylan (44:13):
Oh, okay. So like it contaminated a bunch of…?
Neil Appel (44:15):
Yeah. So, so cereal rye in hay. It's everywhere. And the only way to get it out of winter wheat is to, some, some people have tried to use chemistry, like CoAXium Wheat or the other, beyond wheats and that sort of thing. With varying amounts of success. The best way is to get a crew in is to rouge it out of the fields. So the challenge of putting cereal rye in and then roller crimping it is that, not all of it's gonna die. And so then you're gonna have to Roundup it anyway.
Ryan Boylan (45:01):
Could you, I'm not playing devil's advocate here, but could you follow something like that with like a, like a winter pea and then use different chemistry to control it or no?
Neil Appel (45:12):
I'm not sure.
Ryan Boylan (45:12):
Yeah. I'm not, yeah. I'm not trying to push anything. I'm just wondering.
Neil Appel (45:16):
Right, right. No, I like the idea behind the cereal rye. But can we do that with triticale or something that is controllable?
Ryan Boylan (45:27):
That's not a bad idea. Have your neighbors said anything about the cover crop trials or anything that you've been doing?
Neil Appel (45:33):
They were confused why I was building a fence. And then, then my crop is very green when it should be yellow. But nobody's really said too much. So I don’t know.
Ryan Boylan (45:48):
Yeah. That's great.
Neil Appel (45:51):
They, they, they're concerned when the cows are out and they're in their field.
Ryan Boylan (45:55):
Yeah, yeah. I'm sure.
Neil Appel (45:57):
But I guess they view it as free beef if they catch it, so. (laughs)
Ryan Boylan (46:05):
This is my last question and we ask everybody this that we interview for the podcast. Were there things that you learned this year or the last year? Like could you talk, just talk about like the good, the bad, the ugly of the FLOURISH trials?
Neil Appel (46:17):
Well, so, like reading some of the books that I've read or listening to different people, there is no magic bullet to convert the soil. I think, uh, number one, I think animals are a necessity in the cover crop system. I've tried a varying amount of different things in with my mixes or with my, even, so the problem is with the cover crop is that I'm doing it on 30 to 50 acres and taking it, you know, full scale is gonna take a lot of fencing, a lot of cattle. And so trying to find something I can add to the fertilizer mix or whatever and just mimic what nature can do on its own. I'm not, I don’t know if that's possible. I'm hopeful still and that jury's out, but, that's kind of what I was thinking.
Ryan Boylan (47:25):
Yeah. Or hoping to learn in the next couple years.
Neil Appel (47:27):
Yeah. Hoping to learn is that. On the other hand, I like running the cows and so some more cows, maybe that's not a bad thing too, so. Um, it's another revenue stream. Having the cattle on the place, which is good. So, yeah.
Ryan Boylan (47:46):
Is there anything bad, like really bad?
Neil Appel (47:49):
Well, the worst part, well, it's always worrisome. You see the winter wheat, it comes up and, or when it rains it comes up. So that's always worrisome. You know, we've been very fortunate this winter that it's replenished our, our soil profile with water. So it's always worrisome, you know, when you seed, whether or not it's gonna come up. So dealing with landlords, that can be a challenge.
Ryan Boylan (48:21):
Yeah. No, that's good. Great. Well, thanks for joining us today, Neil.
Neil Appel (48:24):
Yep. You're welcome Ryan.
Conclusion
This podcast was brought to you by the Palouse Conservation District. Funding is provided by USDA's Conservation Innovation Grants Program. To find out more information, check out the FLOURISH website at inwFLOURISH.org. Thanks so much for listening and keep an eye out for our next episode.
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Dirt to Soil by Gabe Brown
Gabe Brown didn't set out to change the world when he first started working alongside his father-in-law on the family farm in North Dakota. But as a series of weather-related crop disasters put Brown and his wife, Shelly, in desperate financial straits, they started making bold changes to their farm. Brown--in an effort to simply survive--began experimenting with new practices he'd learned about from reading and talking with innovative researchers and ranchers. As he and his family struggled to keep the farm viable, they found themselves on an amazing journey into a new type of farming: regenerative agriculture.
Wheat streak mosaic (WSM), caused by Wheat Streak Mosaic Virus (WSMV), is a common disease in many wheat growing regions in the U.S. and world. This is one of the few wheat diseases that can cause a total loss, although losses typically are much less. WSMV survives only in living plants: wheat, corn, and many other grasses. WSMV is transmitted by the wheat curl mite (Aceria tosichella), which also transmits the High Plains Virus; both viruses can be present in affected plants.
Cereal rye is a domestic rye grown widely throughout North America. However, field contamination from volunteer rye often creates a serious problem with wheat producers. Cereal rye is also known to escape cultivation and become established in other areas.